fangirl_says: (Default)
[personal profile] fangirl_says
A couple of thoughts on 4X16 -- not much squee here, I'm afraid.

So, Show, did you really need to (once again!) make the black character evil and then kill him off? Really? It's at the point that it just makes me tired. I'm past outraged, past angry, and just tired. I'm tired of expecting the show to do better, having faith that it'll do better, on issues of race and gender...and then having it fail over and over again.

TPTB must know that many fans object to this kind of crap. I mean, does anyone doubt by now that Kripke et al are keeping track of what fans think? They must have gotten some inkling by now that, hey, people have a problem with this. And apparently, they just don't care.

And isn't this supposed to be the show where No One Is What They Seem? Demons can be good guys, Angels can be badass, Bullies Are People Too? Except for scary, scary black men, apparently. They really are just as threatening and mean as we (clearly) suspected them to be all along.

Tired.

Racefail 2.0 aside, I just...wasn't feeling the Show love this week. While I adore Dean, and as pretty as Jensen is when he angsts, I'd be thrilled if we could go awhile without seeing Dean cry again. Addicted!bloodsucker!Sam was an interesting turn. The one thing about the ep that I found truly fascinating was the notion that God may not be in charge upstairs anymore, that someone else is ordering angels around.

Randomly, since when does Dean getting beaten up land him in the hospital on a ventilator (though still, oddly enough, sitting upright)? I like the idea that Dean being a righteous man who was broken in hell was the first broken seal (though as has been pointed out on my flist this morning, is he really the first righteous man in all of time to be broken in hell?)

I did love Misha's deadpan delivery of "Uriel's got the best sense of humor...ask anyone." *snarf*

Date: 2009-03-20 03:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] deej1957.livejournal.com
I'm tired, too. I wish wish wish WISH we could see inside Sam's head, see things from his POV for a change. He popped in last night, was the hero who saved Dean's life and killed Alistair and then popped back out again. Pop in, pop out and we're stuck with Dean angsting the same old angst dance.

TPTB have no business playing online and allowing one section of fandom to dictate what they write. It destroyed the Stargate fandom, and has this one so divided I don't think it will ever be cohesive again.

And yeah-- the Black man was the bad guy. Again. How awesome it would have been if it had been Castiel and he'd killed Uriel and GOTTEN AWAY?!?!?!

Date: 2009-03-20 03:53 pm (UTC)
zillah975: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zillah975
'Course the Black guy still winds up dead that way.

I was hoping, HOPING that it would turn out Uriel was really doing good - that the angels he'd killed were fighting against God, and that Castiel had been tricked by them, and that Castiel would join Uriel and together they would fight crime! Or, you know, demons. Whatever. It would be SO AWESOME to see Uriel's character be both an asshole and the one doing the right thing. That would have gone a long way towards restoring my faith in the show.

Meh. I just don't even know anymore.
Edited Date: 2009-03-20 03:53 pm (UTC)

Date: 2009-03-20 04:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fangirlsays.livejournal.com
It would be SO AWESOME to see Uriel's character be both an asshole and the one doing the right thing. That would have gone a long way towards restoring my faith in the show.


This, exactly.

Date: 2009-03-20 04:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] deej1957.livejournal.com
Yeah, that's true, duh me! But he would have been a GOOD Dead Black Guy. Er... you know what I mean *G*

I love your scenario-- that would have been awesome.

Why are fans so much better at writing plots than the idiots in Hollywood????? Someone needs to win a lottery somewhere so we can have our own NON-COMMERCIAL TV station so we can run our own shows....

Date: 2009-03-20 04:38 pm (UTC)
zillah975: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zillah975
*g* I do know what you mean. How sad is it to be so desperate for less fail that we're like, "but at least he wouldn't be evil too!" *facepalms* I swear, I don't rec this show to my friends anymore, I'm too embarrassed.

Date: 2009-03-20 03:57 pm (UTC)
zillah975: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zillah975
(though as has been pointed out on my flist this morning, is he really the first righteous man in all of time to be broken in hell?)

So here's an interesting thing.

Righteous souls don't go to Hell.

So, what was Dean doing there? He sold his soul; that would make him unrighteous.

Except, apparently not, because he broke the first seal.

So, selling his soul to save his brother wasn't an unrighteous act? Or something?

Date: 2009-03-20 04:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fangirlsays.livejournal.com
I guess in this 'verse, the fact that he sold his soul with good intentions negate the selling his soul part? So...what about that guy in Crossroads Blues who sold his soul so his wife wouldn't die? Wasn't he a righteous man in hell, too?

Date: 2009-03-20 04:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] deej1957.livejournal.com
You're expecting things to make sense?

I'm guessing here:

That Dean, even though he ran credit card scams which are illigal, and even though he sold his soul, since he did it all for RIGHTEOUS reasons, then that made him still a righteous man.

Was it an episode or fanfic where one of the boys pointed out that they sort of hoped the good they were doing out-weighed the bad in the big picture?

Date: 2009-03-20 04:40 pm (UTC)
zillah975: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zillah975
I dunno, I'd have to check, but I think it's been in the show as well - at least implied, if not stated in so many words.

Date: 2009-03-20 04:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bbluejenn117.livejournal.com
Oh thank goodness, some sanity here. I'm glad the first review I read didn't contain "omg Castiel is so hot and so wonderful". I just posted about this, I was so pissed off that they killed off the black guy, I liked Uriel, because he was bad ass and didn't take Dean's backtalk, which is starting to irritate me. I also thought Sam was the best part of this show, ironically, because he's not usually the one to shine. The season arc is starting to bother me, or maybe its more the "Cas" thing, yeah I'm sure Angels let people give them nicknames all the time *rolls eyes* that was just ridiculous.

but hey series finale of 'BSG' tonight!

Date: 2009-03-20 04:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fangirlsays.livejournal.com
"Cas" bugs me, too. It's like 'hey, big intimidating powerful angel here; call me Buttercup.'

OMG BSG TONIGHT! *fears*

Date: 2009-03-20 05:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bbluejenn117.livejournal.com
ha ha can't you just see it, Castiel skipping through a field of flowers?

Oh I hope the finale kicks all sorts of but

oh and I agree with a previous comment you made, I don't recommend this show to people either now, and am now more likely to recommend 'Gossip Girl', which hmmm not sure what that says about me or 'SPN"

Date: 2009-03-20 04:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] deej1957.livejournal.com
Sam was the hero in the episode, something nobody seems to have noticed as they were so overwhelmed with the "omg Castiel is so hot and so wonderful" and the "OMG Dean was so hot and angsty" bits.

Yeah, those were the first reviews I saw :-(

I liked Uriel for the same reasons. I dearly wish they'd tone down both Dean's angsty crap and also his smart mouth. He's 30 years old. Time to grow up, even if he is a guy *G*

Date: 2009-03-20 08:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bbluejenn117.livejournal.com
ughhhh I'm really really hating that Dean beat out both Spike and Barney Stinson on the LJ fandom March Madness, because seriously these last 2 episodes have not proven that he is more awesome than Spike or Barney

*blech*


I was a Dean fangirl, but I just might switch sides, since Sam needs the love more.

Date: 2009-03-20 05:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] effervescent.livejournal.com
Between fandom's reaction and the content of the show itself, I'm starting to wonder if I'm watching the story of Dean Winchester and Castiel the angel, instead of the Winchester brothers.

Sometimes when a show has Fail fandom is the happy place where I can escape it, but right now? Not so much. I like Misha, but I'm starting to hate the fact that Castiel even exists, and that's entirely because of the way the dynamic of the show has changed, and the fact that fans who objected so strongly to Ellen and Jo and even Bobby are going mad for him.

Date: 2009-03-20 06:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] blackjedii.livejournal.com
No silly, that wasn't a Supernatural episode last night.
Eric Kripke got the okay on his pilot/spinoff, titled Angels in America. It follows the relationship between Uriel (the angry black guy), Castiel (the clueless geek), and Anna (the token hot chick).

Sam and Dean were featured just long enough to tie it in to SPN. Normal viewing will resume next week.

in short... i hated it. I hate Dean tears. I hate Castiel. And I hate five minutes of screentime!Sam.
mostly though, i hate the fact that i'm seeing squee everywhere about how it's a good thing that Dean and Castiel got 'bonding time.'

Date: 2009-03-20 07:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] deej1957.livejournal.com
And unfortunately, the forums that Kripke and Co read are the ones that do all the squeeing. The unhappy ones either don't post or commiserate privately with each other.

There is a fantastic post over on Limp!Sam about last night's episode and Sam. It really opened up my eyes a lot.

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/limpsam/show_single_post?pid=32639847&postcount=54

Part of it says:
**Sam has been forced to step to the fore as the strong one. He is not the straightforward hero like Dean in Season 1, because nothing is straight forward about his power or the path that brought him to where he is. He is mysterious, and ambiguous, and to me, exciting. He seems cold because he has built walls around himself that a tank couldn’t get through. He cannot allow himself to be vulnerable. Sammy in season 1 had that luxury, Sam in season 4 doesn’t. He especially cannot allow any vulnerability around his brother. 1) he can't be so weak that if he loses his brother again it will destroy him. 2) Dean has the ability to hurt him if he lets his guard down, and has done so. Implying Sam was something to be hunted? Throwing Madison in his face? 3) If he gets distracted by his brother’s pain it will weaken him. The way things are now, God forbid Sam goes weak. If he does the world can kiss its butt goodbye.**

Date: 2009-03-20 08:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] blackjedii.livejournal.com
I think the writers are aware of some of the problems this season (Sera Gamble has been asked a few times now where the hell Sam went to and her answer usually is "He's there and I think he's grown a lot and you'll see it! Promise!" but she was saying that about 4.09 so...), I just don't think they care.
The nastier side of me though would point out that this entire season has been nothing but fanservice to the loud and vitriolic side of fandom that spent all of last season swearing up and down that they were DONE if they didn't get rid of those two bitches and give Dean some respect already. And I know that's entirely untrue and probably not what the writers were going but... so far Kripke has not said all that much about one brother while the other has been praised pretty openly. And that's where I start getting a little too fed up with the whole thing. Bad plot and melodrama aside, I'm just getting too much Dean and Dean's new blue-eyed fanboy and it sucks because I liked Dean fine before this season. Now I've learned to just do other things while he and his shiny angel are onscreen.

Thanks for the link though, I'll have to read it tonight after dogwalk. Mmm dogwalk. <3 <3

Date: 2009-03-20 08:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] deej1957.livejournal.com
I wasn't going to say all that, but since you did: WORD!!!!

Yes, do read the link, it helped me a lot in how I was looking at things. Didn't change my mind, just eased it a bit.

Date: 2009-03-20 07:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bitterbird.livejournal.com
your review is perfect and epic amounts of word
where are our Sam centric, or at least brotherly centric episodes?!?!
Im so tired of Dean crying, he has been loosing my sypathy more and more every week when he does that

Date: 2009-03-20 11:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] irishka1205.livejournal.com
is he really the first righteous man in all of time to be broken in hell?)

Well, no, apparently John was. Which I'm not buying either. From what we've seen on the show, righteous men made deals all the time. Why hadn't they tried to start breaking seas before?

Date: 2009-03-20 11:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] randombastary.livejournal.com
Didn't they say that Papa didn't break?

Date: 2009-03-21 12:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] irishka1205.livejournal.com
Yes. I just meant that Alastair said that John was supposed to be the one. So I took it to imply as John was the first righteous man they tried to break.

Date: 2009-03-21 12:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] randombastary.livejournal.com
Ahhhhhhhh. Gotcha. ::facepalm:: Yes, that totally makes sense. I must just fail. lol

Date: 2009-03-21 12:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] irishka1205.livejournal.com
Oh, don't worry about it. It's too confusing and honestly, it doesn't really make sense to me other than just to completely break Dean. Kripke hasn't apparently learned not to kick a man when he's down.

Date: 2009-03-21 12:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] randombastary.livejournal.com
Kripke is a sadist. This is fact.

Date: 2009-03-21 12:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] irishka1205.livejournal.com
True that.

Not very happy with him right now.

Date: 2009-03-20 11:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] randombastary.livejournal.com
I actually made a prediction last week that Kripke was going to pull a His Dark Materials thing, where we find out that God is dead, and that one of the angels has been masquerading as God.

Date: 2009-03-21 12:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fangirlsays.livejournal.com
I kind of like the idea of nobody really being in charge all this time, and angels scrabbling for the power just like the demons are. :)

Date: 2009-03-21 12:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] randombastary.livejournal.com
I still haven't decided whether I like the idea or not. It may actually take them saying one way or the other, and then, me with some time to process (while looking back on the show).

Date: 2009-03-21 12:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] morganslady.livejournal.com
It's funny how folks can see things differently. I didn't see Uriel as the 'bad' black angel.I saw Uriel as being so far removed from 'headquarters' that he goes rouge. I liked doger's description "rather as a soldier left too long in the bush to the end of going native." And I could understand his wanting to change things..

And for the most part roles are written without race in mind,they then cast the best actor for the part..

Date: 2009-03-21 12:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fangirlsays.livejournal.com
Can you think of more than one or two black characters (especially men) who didn't end up evil, dead or both? Doesn't that seem odd to you?

Date: 2009-03-21 01:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] morganslady.livejournal.com
A lot of folks end up dead on this show..
OK,now I'm gonna wrack my brain, the husband and wife hunters, Issac(?), he wasn't bad, yes he died, but like I said,Kripke kills off a lot off folks.

Date: 2009-03-21 01:22 pm (UTC)
ext_6850: Amadi is a writer. (Default)
From: [identity profile] aecamadi.livejournal.com
The fact that a lot of people end up dead on this show doesn't do anything to negate the fact that the most committed fans cannot count enough black characters who haven't been evil, been killed or been evil AND killed to use up the fingers on one hand.

At this point it would be better if black actors were never cast in this show at all. Better to be racist by exclusion than to continually put black people into the worst possible situations on the show over and over and over again.

Date: 2009-03-21 04:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] morganslady.livejournal.com
I doubt seriously that the actors trying out for the roles would feel that way.
Having spoken to Malik Whitfield(Hendrickson), he was thrilled with his role in Supernatural. He of course would have liked more, but so wouldall of the actors in the show,Jeffrey Dean Morgan is still hoping to be asked back.

Date: 2009-03-21 06:09 pm (UTC)
ext_6850: Amadi is a writer. (Default)
From: [identity profile] aecamadi.livejournal.com
And actors hoping for work don't always have the opportunity nor the distance to look at the larger issues being presented by a show in a constructive and critical manner. Fans of color have made their voices heard on this matter, it might be worthwhile to listen.

Date: 2009-03-21 12:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fangirlsays.livejournal.com
Also, we can quibble over the word "bad", but the fact is that he was out there killing angels, tried to "turn" and then tried to kill Castiel, who is a sympathetic character. I'd say he was definitely cast in a negative light.

Date: 2009-03-21 01:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] morganslady.livejournal.com
I felt some symapthy for him.. He felt abandoned and in a sense slightled,because the angels were put lower than humans.. I'm sorry to see him go,if for no other reason than I thought his take on humans in some cases was pretty accurate.

Date: 2009-03-21 01:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] onecheekyhobbit.livejournal.com
Except for scary, scary black men, apparently. They really are just as threatening and mean as we (clearly) suspected them to be all along.

I don't think I'll ever stop laughing at that. I enjoyed this week, but a lot of that was needing a fix. Ya know? Also, the pretty one was there.

The Sam stuff PISSED ME OFF cause it was VERY interesting and it's NOT what he should be doing. /dean rant


I do think they cry too much. But the Cas and Dean moments made everything pretty for me. All could be forgiven because two pretty people were on the screen together. (I'm sadly only half way joking.)

Anyway, much love!
K

Date: 2009-03-21 01:23 pm (UTC)
ext_6850: Amadi is a writer. (Default)
From: [identity profile] aecamadi.livejournal.com
You'll never stop laughing at that? What, exactly, about that is in any way funny?

Date: 2009-03-21 02:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] onecheekyhobbit.livejournal.com
The way she phrased it was fantastic!
Edited Date: 2009-03-21 02:27 pm (UTC)

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