The hubub regarding Sam and Ruby that everyone's wanking about

[fangirl_says]

You know, I'm all for taking a wait-and-see attitude about the whole situation between Sam and Ruby. But what I don't get is the level of animosity against the OP in this post. (ETA: Post has been bahleeted.) Jumpin' Jehovah, people, do you really need to crucify the person for having an opinion? Are conjecture and speculation about things that may come to pass now verboten?

This whole thing has already gotten nastier than most of the Wincest/anti-Wincest wank. If the situation actually does come to fruition, this fandom is going to explode.

Comments

[shoiryu.livejournal.com]

I think it's all well and good to discuss stuff, but her tone is kind of... aggressive and vaguely accusatory, I guess. I remember it being really off putting in her last post about it, too. So I can see where people are, uh, reacting the way they are.

[fangirlsays.livejournal.com]

Her post is pretty inflammatory, yeah, but I guess what bothers me are all the "well, then DON'T WATCH IT!!1!!" comments -- they remind me a little too much of how anyone who dared to question how women are treated on the show was shown the door. Anyone who thinks the show is not infallible must be drummed out of fandom, apparently.

[shoiryu.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's problematic from either side of that fence. :/

[zillah975]

Coming in so late in the thread -- I ditched that comm ages ago 'cause man, it is all et up with the crazy -- I'm seeing a level of vitriol way out of proportion to her post. I didn't see people discussing anything, I saw people telling her she's wrong to say anything because we don't have omg 100% proof, and that she should just shut up and stop watching the show.

'Course I didn't read all the comments, either, 'cause they were giving me a headache, so, maybe I just missed the thoughtful and reasoned debate. :)

[shoiryu.livejournal.com]

Yeah, like I said, vitriol's not good. But her tone actually even rubbed me the wrong way and I'm usually pretty chill about these things. I'm not really saying "OMG SHE DESERVED THAT RESPONSE" I guess more, "That sucks, but a hornet's nest kind of got stomped on real hard there."

[zillah975]

I don't have the post saved so I can't be sure, but I don't remember it crawling all over me that way. I mean, iirc, what she was saying was that she thinks they're sleeping together, and that if they are, that's a Bad Thing. Well, if they are, it is -- and I didn't see anyone disagreeing with that. I saw people angry that she thinks they're sleeping together when there's no solid proof, which is weird to me, 'cause we're allatime talking about things for which there's no solid proof and people are much more willing to discuss (or argue, or wank about) whether they think it's happening. I didn't see that here, what I saw was "you have no proof, so stop speculating." I guess I'm not seeing a legit hornet's nest there, just a lot of appallingly defensive fangirls.

[nyoka.livejournal.com]

There is nothing I hate more in wank that posts like "It's just a TV Show" or "Don't Watch It" when someone has an opinion contrary to what the masses of fandom deem acceptable. GAH, that sort of bandwagon-crap irks me so much.

But yeah, if Sam and Ruby are indeed "lovers" fandom is gonna go boom.

[just-ruth.livejournal.com]

*snort* If they don't like it, write AU.

[blackjedii.livejournal.com]

Somewhere in a writer's room far, far away, Eric Kripke is watching that post and rubbing his wickled little hands as he considers how to mess with people's minds mext.
It will probably involve Dean potentially getting a new ride for an episode or two. That's going to keep folks wanking through mid-season.

Post has been removed...

[deej1957.livejournal.com]

..I'm getting a 'no such entry' msg when I click on the link.

I can imagine what it says and what the responses were osimply by what I'd been reading yesterday before I basically unsubbed from all my comms and yahoo groups. I tend to absorb the emotions around me, and with all the nastiness that abounds right now I was soaking up a lot of unhappiness.

I had ENOUGH of "It's Just A TV show" and "If you don't like it stop watching" in Stargate fandom. Comments like that make me want to lynch the poster.

[effervescent.livejournal.com]

Pffft, I'm sorry, but I'm of the opinion that if you're going to post it, you'd best be ready to deal with whatever's said. I hate it when people delete entries and suddenly three pages of comments are gone. It's a cheap way of dealing with reaction.

*scrapbooks entry* At least I have the original post and first page of comments in case I want to look at them later.

[zillah975]

I'm with you on the not deleting posts. But given that it was in supernatural_tv, I've gotta say, it's possible that the OP wasn't the one who deleted it.

[amberdulen.livejournal.com]

Jumpin' Jehovah, people, do you really need to crucify the person for having an opinion?

That's fandom, Jake. :)

[feels-like-fire.livejournal.com]

Okay, off-topic, but: When I was scrolling past your journal, I'm seeing THIS icon:



Instead of what I know to be an SPN icon. Wtf LJ? That seems more than coincidence. (That's Billie Joe in that icon, from his recent stint as a slutty blond while they were doing the Foxboro Hot Tubs.) Like, seriously, it can't be coincidence that LJ would substitute one of your icons for an icon that I think is from one of my other f-listers. BIZARRE.

[fangirlsays.livejournal.com]

Dude. LJ has been so weird with icons lately! Half the time, it doesn't show me any icons at all, and I've seen a BUNCH of people on my flist going "wtf, that's not my icon!" *thwaps LJ into submission*

[muses-circle.livejournal.com]

So glad I'm not the only one having this issue!

*thwacks LJ*

[muses-circle.livejournal.com]

Jumpin' Jehovah, people, do you really need to crucify the person for having an opinion? Are conjecture and speculation about things that may come to pass now verboten?

Her post was pretty inflammatory to begin with (but I know the original poster from the SV fandom, where the same thing goes on). But this is just another example of how fandom in general refuses to acknowledge dissenting opinions. Heaven forbid someone dare to question, ya know?

Also? It's funny that this fandom gets up in arms over anything related to a female... It's why I left that comm a loooong time ago.

well, it's to be expected

[katelennon.livejournal.com]

I mean, Sam Winchester being bad? That's just so not the character we've seen and I can very much see the flying fangirls going a bit ape over the whole thing. I also understand the poster's opinion, but it's just that- an opinion. We all have them and sometimes they aren't popular. I applaud the poster having an opinion, but I think it's a bit presumptive to assume that Sam and new!Ruby are hotbunking.

If they are? That's more balls than I'll Kripke credit for, I can't see him breaking Sam down to that level, but it sure would send the Samgirls into a tizzy of killing-Tara like proportions.

Re: well, it's to be expected

[nyoka.livejournal.com]

send the Samgirls into a tizzy of killing-Tara like proportions

Haha, this made me giggle.

It's so true, though isn't it??

[katelennon.livejournal.com]

It's going to be epic if that's actually what's going on. I think as, most able hanncoll has said, a fandom meltdown.
Which, sadly, I would really, really emjoy.
For I am evil, and like to eat babies and trip old women walking down the road with their walkers.

Mwahahahahahaaaa

Re: well, it's to be expected

[zillah975]

I can't see him breaking Sam down to that level,

No, but I can easily see him simply not having fully considered the implications of it.

Kripke or Sam?

[katelennon.livejournal.com]

I would have bought Kripke not thinking it through before he sent Dean to hell. That was a major uptick for me and since then nothing I've seen has made me think Kripke isn't in 'full evil magnificent BASTARD' mode.

Sam not having considered? That would be unthinkable. Sam was possessed, I don't buy that for a minute- every single writer should be shot if they are going with that explanation. I'll load the rifles myself.

Re: Kripke or Sam?

[zillah975]

No, I meant Kripke and the writers. I could also see Kripke going forward with it after considering the implications, and fitting Sam's characterization to that -- using it as a way to show him going further down the path to the dark side.

Re: Kripke or Sam?

[esorlehcar.livejournal.com]

Given Meg's speech in AYTGIMDW, it's hard to believe the writers haven't thought about it. Then again, this team who is the same EPISODE suggested that Andy was using his powers to rape women and we should find it adorable, then showed Weber doing exactly the same thing and suggested we should find it horrible, so... consistency may be asking for too much.

I don't know. I can forgive Jared's recent comments because I doubt he's thought at all about the implications of it, but if it's introduced as a plot point on the show without making clear that what he's doing is rape, pure and simple, I'm going to be very unhappy.

which I am okay with.. I want some texture to Sam

[katelennon.livejournal.com]

He has been such a stalwart character in terms of his own innate goodness, that part of me very much wants to see Sam have to face his dark side. He is a prideful man and that's never been looked at in the show. He has many, many wonderful qualities, but he's no better or worse than Dean and I would relish the opportunity to see Sam have to address his less qualities, as it were. If (and I say this with my eyes closed and toes crossed) Kripke and Co. think this through carefully, they could really do something amazing.

Which makes me want to start a prayer chain for the writing staff at SPN.

Re: which I am okay with.. I want some texture to Sam

[zillah975]

See, I kind of get stalled on the idea of rape as adding "texture".

I'd love for Sam to confront his own dark side, but holy fucking Christ do I NOT think that making him a rapist is the way to do it. I just. If Kripke et al come along and tell us that Sam has been having sex with Ruby knowing that there's a girl in there with no way of either agreeing to or protesting what's happened to her, just trapped in her own body while Ruby and Sam use it to get off -- that's way, way, way past "texture" on smack in the middle of "I can't accept this in a character I'm supposed to care about." Also, I believe it would be wildly out of character for Sam. I would believe it if it were to start after Sam gave in to his dark side and became truly evil, but prior to that, it just isn't who he is. Nothing in the show has even come close to preparing me for a Sam who would do that.

You write that he's no better or worse than Dean, and I agree. I don't think Dean would rape a woman either.

I guess I'm not communicating well, which is par for the course with me.

[katelennon.livejournal.com]

If Sam is engaging in a sexual relationship with a possessed girl, he is a rapist and this character is destroyed, period.

That being said IF he is indeed in a sexual relationship with Ruby occupying a not!possessed body (one that is neither dead or in some sort of chronic persistent vegetative state) that's where I see the possibility of a texture to Sam.

Re: I guess I'm not communicating well, which is par for the course with me.

[zillah975]

*nods* I'd question whether "persistent vegetative state" would make it not rape, but certainly if the original owner of the body isn't there anymore and the only inhabitant is willing and able to consent, then yes, that would not be rape.

Also, that's a really cute icon. :)

That's a *great* question

[katelennon.livejournal.com]

Which us into a whole new area of discussion- one that I am woefully uneducated in, so I"m going to check with my sis- who is a Physicians Assistant (almost) and can give me a little background.

I love icons, they just make me happy.

Re: well, it's to be expected

[ktnb]

but it sure would send the Samgirls into a tizzy of killing-Tara like proportions.

I don't know - most of the Samgirls I know (myself included) WANT Sam to be boinking Ruby, inhabited body or not. :D

Oooo. Can I be your friend? Most Samgirls

[katelennon.livejournal.com]

I know are all "He's not getting any screen time, he's not being written for, blah, blah, blah.." If Sam is boinking Ruby, what a wonderful, amazing opportunity to flesh Sam out as more than just 'the boy-king'! I would have to OFFICIALLY announce Kripke as 'More magnificently bastard-like than Joss' and you know that I am verrry picky about giving that title away. Joss is nothing if not one EPICALLY EVIL MAGNIFICENT BASTARD (caps required).

Re: Oooo. Can I be your friend? Most Samgirls

[zillah975]

I'm cool with Kripke as a bastard, but I'm not okay with Sam as someone who would repeatedly rape a woman. Not at all. Maybe if Ruby managed to seduce him a couple times, but only if he subsequently, upon recognizing exactly what he's done, he broke into a million tiny pieces and spent the rest of his miserable life trying to make up for it.

'Cause really, there's no making up for that. Saving the world does not get you a "bye" to commit rape.

I'd love to see Sam's characterization become more complex, but not by adding "rapist" to his resume.

I believe the fact is that there is a large question

[katelennon.livejournal.com]

as to what, exactly is going on with Sam and Ruby. I don't see Sam sleeping with a Ruby possessing a 'real, live' girl. I could see him justifying that 'solace' with either some sort of brain-dead girl or one that just died- with Ruby taking ownership from the former owner.

I guess that's my point, not knowing the specific circumstances of a possible relationship makes any arguments for or against not terribly important until we get a canon clarification. If Sam is engaging in a sexual relationship, with a demon who is housed with a body that does not have it's original occupant in a lock down.. I respectfully submit that it could be some very interesting story. That's all I'm trying to get at.

Re: I believe the fact is that there is a large question

[zillah975]

not knowing the specific circumstances of a possible relationship makes any arguments for or against not terribly important until we get a canon clarification.

Ah. See, to me, that's what we do allatime, we discuss and argue about things that aren't 100% clear from canon. Fandom is constantly talking about "what if" and "do you think [this or that]" or "if John missed all those Christmases he's a terrible father" / "no he isn't, he was out there trying to save people and that trumps Christmas" and so on. I'm really bewildered why this one situation has so many people saying that we shouldn't have opinions about a "if he is/if he isn't" until we know for sure whether he is or isn't.

If Sam is engaging in a sexual relationship, with a demon who is housed with a body that does not have it's original occupant in a lock down.. I respectfully submit that it could be some very interesting story.

I agree. If the girl is no longer in the body, then sure -- though I'd be interested to know how Sam could be convinced that it was true, since everything we know so far says that the soul is still in the body even after the body should be dead.

Re: I believe the fact is that there is a large question

[katelennon.livejournal.com]

since everything we know so far says that the soul is still in the body even after the body should be dead.


Really? I must be missing something fairly substantial, then. I know that when a person 'comes back' as a ghost, you can forcibly dispatch it via their remains, but other than that- I can't think of where I've seen that. Can ya help a fellow fan out?

Re: I believe the fact is that there is a large question

[zillah975]

Oh, I'm speaking only of when they're possessed. So far, the possessed people we've seen live long enough post-possession to make any indication have indicated that they were there and awake during the demon's exploits. Also, when Sam talks about the people he's saved with his scary no-Latin exorcisms, he implies that he's frequently managed to save the host as well, which would imply that the soul is present to resume control when the demon is gone. And when they exorcise Meg, Bobby tells them to be careful and not hurt her because there's an innocent girl trapped inside there. Bobby's the resident demon expert, so I'm thinking he's a reliable narrator on that score. All in all, it seems to add up to me to the soul remaining in the possessed body, and being aware of what's going on.

Ahhh. see I was thinking more in terms of a dead/comatose body

[katelennon.livejournal.com]

Not a (and I can't believe I'm even going to type this) garden variety possession.

Having written that, I think I'm going to lay down for a while. It's so very, very wrong. I'm going to go and lay down until I feel less horrible.. We're really getting to some very weird lines with this story.

Oy.

Re: Oooo. Can I be your friend? Most Samgirls

[zillah975]

See, yeah, except really not, not when I think about it. I'd love for Sam to be getting some action, but think about it. He would be raping that woman, over and over and over. And just no. Nuh-uh. That's not okay with me.

[lyndasty.livejournal.com]

As much as I love and adore SPN, I left most (read: ALL) of the comms over a year or so ago because they're all (at times) buckets of crazy and I just don't deal well with stupidity.

Now, I didn't see the post (because I've been out of it all day and JUST NOW read this post) but I can imagine the tone of it as well as that of the comments. I mean come on, people, it's FANDOM and we all have our own opinions!! What generally makes fandom so great is that we don't always have to get along and have the same opinions. But, apparently, I'm "old" in thinking that way because now it seems like fandom, as a whole, has to have the same opinions on EVERYTHING or there is a big KABOOM and wanking ensues.

I agree that if it comes to light that Sam and new!Ruby are doing the deed, SPN fandom will just kill itself from the wank.

This whole thing has already gotten nastier than most of the Wincest/anti-Wincest wank.

How true...and how sad is that?! I mean all this "is Sammy doing it with Ruby even though that's tantamount to rape" wank makes the Wincest/anti-Wincest wank look like a mild disagreement. It's actually embarassing...

Let the fandom wank itself to death...I'll be sitting back, watching the boys do what they do best...

[esorlehcar.livejournal.com]

I think I'm glad this was deleted before I could see it. The whole "get the fuck out of fandom if think it is possible for SPN to have any problems" thing was old before it started. But hey, fresh bingo games!

[fangirlsays.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I really don't get the vitriol. Where do people get the energy for it?

[erinrua.livejournal.com]

WTF? Guess I missed it, huh? So it's becoming illegal to have an opinion, now?

BTW, reminds me owe you an apology for my last, knee-jerk reaction to a post you made. For which I apologise. :-) *offers chocolate and a rose* I hope you don't mind if I join you on the "wait-and-see" bench. Personally, I just don't have the energy to get all offended before and until something is actually proven! ;-)

Sheez. I need to go find an upload of last night's ep, just so's I can stay in my happy place for another week. *g*

[fangirlsays.livejournal.com]

*snorgles* You don't owe me any apology, sweetie. Not in the least. :D

And dude, I SO am with you on the not having the energy for proactive offense-taking.

*makes room on the "wait-and-see" bench*

[bloggingchick.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I keep telling myself I'm just going bypass everything concerning that issue. And I had thus far. So what did I do? Toss in my penny's worth. I am so going back to not reading any of it. I am very much opposed to it, but I also have a theory based on something YED said to Dean in 4x03, although I could be completely wrong about it.

In my very humble opinion, people are taking some things far too seriously. Last night's episode even brought up a frenzy on how all Dean's scars and battle wounds were healed on his way out of Hell, but his tattoo was left on him. "That's impossible" people said...

There was a time, back in the day, when watching a TV show was so much simpler...